Cheers Pete on yr last post. It makes a lot more sense to me now. The pinky (i assume u mean the smallest finger) im still having problems with. My ring finger is very painful (where the stick balances between the first joint and edge of finger) if i keep my pinky under it, where as if i force it out, it doesnt hurt as much, although i lose more control. Most pics i have been looking at of top players have their pinky curled in. It certainly is a difficult thing to master, ive been playing matched for so long im not sure if i can convert to trad grip comfortably, im sure its just down to practice though. I have found that the swing of the elbow also plays a part in the stroke, i dont think you can execute a large stroke by wrist alone, which is another reason why it feels painful. I think Steve explained this (finger/wrist/elbow control). Definately a swing thing!! Thank you for yr help Pete,

Phil

ps do you think it helps to try to learn this by 'air drumming' the stroke?